It was once said that there is no argument on this earth that can make a stubborn man alter his opinion, other than to receive news that his point of view is shared by either Yasmin Alibhai-Brown or Henry Porter; such a realisation inevitably sends him hareing at top speed in the other intellectual direction.
In a similar way, I'd usually be the last person under usual circumstances to defend MPs against accusations of troughing with regard to allowances on second homes and the John Lewis list, in spite of the wider tendency of the media to lump all MPs' expenses in together so the pittance that us bag-carriers take home every month (if you're lucky) gets reported as if it were part of the Elected Representatives' Cocaine and Hookers Budget. However, I'm getting a little bit irritated by the tendency of the right-wing media and bloggers alike to constantly bang on about how hideously expensive all this democracy business is.
The latest in this series is Iain Dale's post yesterday on the cost of policing party conferences. According to Iain, Conservative MP David Ruffley wants to know why the cost of security at Labour Party conferences is more than that of its Conservative equivalent, and why the total price has increased in the last two years. As for the first point - and I would have thought it fairly obvious - the conference of the party of Government is going to be a greater terrorist target than that of opposition ones. Sorry, I know that Boy George Osborne is already squeaking as if he were in Government, as his natural birthright holds self-evident, but it's still the case that Labour is the party of power. In a similar manner I'd expect more security outside Number 10 Downing Street than I would for the Smith bunker in Greenford because, y'know, I'm not the Prime Minister. Fairly obvious, really.
Iain goes on to make the case that, given the overall cost to the taxpayer, we should "call time" on party conferences, which is interesting because I don't recall him directing a similar bitchslap against David Davis last month, whose exercise in electoral willy-waving in the by-election for Haltemprice and Ainshuntliberties (copyright PooterGeek) cost the British electorate about a million quid. Party differences aside, are the commentariat really asking why public money should be spent on the political process?
Personally, I regret the fact that the Labour Government increased the amount of Short money available to the Conservatives threefold between 1999 and 2000 at a time when the Tories had nothing coming in. Until Lord Ashcroft bought the party in (I think) 2003, the state was providing the Conservatives with over 60 percent of its income and introduced a ring-fenced budget for the Leader of the Opposition's office. This year the Tories received a whopping £4.5m windfall from the apparently beleagured taxpayer. Surprisingly, the why-o-why howlers in the media are silent on this munificence, which leads me to suspect that many are not actually opposed to money being spent on politics, just money being spent on those with the wrong politics. So, was the Labour Government wrong to help out the Tories until Ashcroft hoved into view with his chequebook? Between gritted teeth and if I was being logical I'd have to say no, I don't think so. A properly operating Opposition - even though it took them many years to get their act together - is important for a democracy.
Similarly, party conferences may be tedious for many and little more than political set-pieces these days, but they are a time of year when parties get to showcase their policies and the people formulating them. Okay, so most normal people turn over to Extreme Makeover as soon as an update from Brighton comes through the televisual tubes, but there is the option for those who don't to watch and form an opinion on the electoral wares on offer. Abolishing them because they cost too much to police would save the equivalent of what the Conservatives are going to cane in in Short money for the 2008/09 financial year, but at what wider cost to an informed electorate?
Iain might say - and forgive me if I am wrong - that people should not have politics forced down their throats, that they can engage over the internet or through newspapers with political arguments. That may be so if you believe in what Berlin termed "negative liberty," the desire to be "free from" rather than to be "free to" which is, in essence, the philosophical thesis behind Cameron's Conservatives (and finds its chief proponent in that tedious old high Tory, Henry Porter). But who does this benefit really? Politics for a select few, that's who: people who have the leisure time and education to get involved in the political process, people who can afford the time and money to attend meetings of political parties that are held in camera and not subject to public scrutiny.
What of the money spent on MPs salaries and second homes? Whilst undoubtedly some of our elected representatives do indeed extract the Michael in this regard (cf. Derek Conway [Con], the Wintertons [Con], and Caroline Spelman [Con] inter alia) the reason such expenses exist is to allow the democratically elected who lacked the foresight to be born rich like Osborne or in line for the throne like Cameron to hold office. I'm not going to make the argument that MPs aren't paid enough (they are) but they are paid for a reason: so that politics is more than just a playground for the wealthy who can afford to "do" Westminster when they are not managing daddy's estate, or "Kent" as it's sometimes known.
None of this is to say that where abuses occur that they shouldn't be investigated and the perpetrators punished. What I am saying is that representative democracy - like liberty - is not something that exists as some form of omnipresent deity that requires no sacrificial lambs. It exists as a complex man-made system of dispute resolution that is necessary for the common good even if we occasionally disagree on what that constitutes. Happily, a reasonably informed electorate comprised of individuals who are not barred by birth or poverty from engaging with the process in order to change it can exercise a view as to what comprises this good through the ballot box or by standing themselves.
This will, inevitably, cost public money. The fact that concerns over the cost of the by-election in Magnercarter and Howden (again, copyright PooterGeek) and the going on for £40m the Conservatives have cost the taxpayer in Short money since 1997 have been so muted leads me to suspect that the real motivation behind these save-the-money-of-the-people narratives is now that the Tories are back on their feet, they want to ringfence politics again for the chosen few - the rich - whilst claiming they are only acting in the interests of saving us poor little people money.
Real democracy? I don't think so.
Wednesday, 23 July 2008
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14 comments:
the reason such expenses exist is to allow the democratically elected who lacked the foresight to be born rich like Osborne or in line for the throne like Cameron to hold office...."do" Westminster when they are not managing daddy's estate, or "Kent" as it's sometimes known.
Poor little Tamsyn Dunwoody for example, you should see where she was brought up! I have delightful pictures of the Harrods van making deliveries In fact the money in Labour ranks is noticeably “older” and the familial links far stronger . If you look at Jeremy Paxman`s summary it is clear that it is far more a matter of inheritance to be a labour MP . They have money or at least old connections Conservatives make money and have far more new blood . ( Liberals even more so)
You are confusing two issues . It is very difficult for ordinary people to get into politics as they will have a career in which they have done ‘ordinarily’ perhaps children and a budget. On the left the route is usually through the tax funded sector of the economy where little work is expected and long absence is over looked , the Unions still of course.., or the “pure political “route whereby vile brilliantined life avoiders crawl up the establishment inside leg via think tanks...ugh This last goes on ,on both sides and they share limitations as you would expect. For those in ordinary profit making business this sort of game is unsustainable whatever the pot of gold might be two elections down the line . How does that pay the mortgage? This limits the intake to those not hurt by tax on all sides and with predictable results .. Your silly witter about a landowning squierarcy is therefore wrong irrelevant to your remark and represents a foolish misunderstanding the real structural barriers to ordinary tax payers brining life experience into the political sphere . Not only that but it is perpetuating a superannuated slur that as we saw in Crewe does not work
On "sleaze" Cameron is cleaning it out because he can afford to Brown is not because he cannot and if you suppose that Labour MP`s are peculiarly immune to the temptations of the informal payment arrangement ( which is what it was) you are quite wrong. Both in Europe and here the ground is being prepared to break the post Conway truce at the right time. Personally I find it all a bit dull when billions are being wasted on the R D as ID cards and in the Public sector generally
“Personally, I regret the fact that the Labour Government increased the amount of Short money available to the Conservatives threefold between 1999 and 2000 at a time when the Tories had nothing coming in.”
This is pure invention, there was never ‘nothing’ coming in and Lord Ashcrofts donations are not as large as individual donations made to the Labour Party by Mittall or Sainsbury . The structure of Conservative funding is predominantly medium sized donations which is why we are happy with a £50,000 limit .
With the Unions quadrupling their contribution to stave off impending bankruptcy and the history of deals ( Ecclestone) and peerages for sale . they now make 90% of Labour’s funding and they are asking for talismanic little accommodations like secondary picketing rights and ballot by email and phone. With billions thrown at the DUP to save Brown over 45 days we can be sure a deal has been done . Modernisation grant increased and a promise of Public sector rises after the general election
How exactly you can say anything all about finding when your owners are openly bartering ing Policies for cash I cannot imagine . Only 185 of the country is unionised the rest of us have to pay for this cosseted client state
Short Money ,,,....quite right lets get rid of it shall we ...
1. Tamsin Dunwoody: did I say ALL MPs were horny handed sons of toil? No. Do I care? No. What's your point?
2. I do not "witter." The fact that you seem to be incapable of constructing an argument that's either adequately (or indeed, at all) punctuated combined with a writing style that would make Yoda blush means that you are unqualified to comment on my style in any way at all.
3. Union money is clean money - the most regulated in politics (cheers, Thatch!) what with political fund ballots and the like. Your Tory front bench seem to have about sixy-five different jobs between them ... and you cannot even say whether your biggest donor (Ashcroft) is a British taxpayer. Pathetic.
4. Yes, I heard about Cameron cleaning up sleaze. Who was his sleazebuster? Some person called Spelman as I recall ...
5. RE: your point on Short Money. I am unsure whether you are advocating its abolition or its continuation (please see point [2] for elucidation as to why that might be)
6. Don't hector either me or my regulars with your meanderings until you stop frothing at the mouth and are able to either construct prose or argument in a way that is easily understood by those who don't speak the language of Loon.
That is all.
Actually newmania, sorry I was a bit harsh. I think you may have pressed the button marked "is it because I af lady-bits" which always makes me explode a little.
In that case I shall tone down my answer (leaving fragments )
I `m at work .............orthographical Nazi ............ typical .... virtual Violet Elizabeth Bott......
Arrrgh .....
Cough cough....
.Dunwoody conspicuously accused Edward Timson of toffery, when she was in fact more privileged in a distinctively Labour way. I have then described the closed world of Labour’s MPs giving a reference(only good thing in that Paxman book). It was therefore a good example of my description of intake on each side, demonstrating that your ill informed snipe about a privileged Conservatives with estates was bogus
I went on to say that the idea that a pot of gold, ten years away, is helpful for ordinary people thinking of entering politics, is quite obviously absurd . I drew attention to the sorts of people who suffer from exclusion who ,above all, are those who are threatened when taxes are raised because they have no margin for risk or delay. This was a refutation of another of your contentious remarks, a sound one I feel.
Union money is not clean. It is collected by association of Labour support with Employment and protection within employment. Individuals who wish to donate to Labour would be free to do so under Conservative proposals so if it is ‘clean’ then you have no problem, except you do.. Unions represent a minority paid for by those generally in the private sector. It is therefore an outrage that they can openly demand such things as “secondary picketing rights “ in return for cash. This is now 90% of Labour funding a large part of it will be returned as a modernisation grant ie stolen from the tax payer.
In passing I dismantled your traditional Ashcroft myth .
I agree with you about the obsession with details of political funding but your side swipes are ill -informed and past their sell by date . Finally , short money, being payable to oppositions, is not something I imagine the Labour Party will want to see changed at this point. That would be because of the 20% Labour are behind in the Polls and a period of opposition looming. It was sort of a joke ,requiring a common set of references which I regret now .
Goodbye Miss Sadie I`ll show myself out
Heh, sorry newmania - I've had a coffee and calmed down now!
Wow, you got rid of Newmania. Way to go! Show Hopi Sen how it's done!
I wouldn't feel too guilty for the harshness Sadie, the man did bring up one of those smug Tory points (Tasmin Dunwoody is bigger toff than Timpson) despite it not being particularly relevant.
He avoids the sleaze arguments because to be honest we have the Tories bang to rights on that score.
And talks about Tory plans for donation caps with that whole deliberate ignorance towards the obvious facts that they're designed to royally screw the Labour party.
Only 18% of the country's workforce is unionised because Thatcher indulged in an initial round of royal screwing 20 years prior.
His idea that union money is not clean is pure bull, all political funding is special interests it just happens that this special interest is highly democratic and represents a far larger share of the working population then any other special interest.
To add to all that, it appears that the unpleasant right wing bully boy actually agrees with your main point.
I don't have a problem with MP's getting paid a decent whack if their financial rewards match their responsibility - but as the British Parliament has contracted out 80% of it's power to an unelected and unaccountable clique of bureaucrats and sundry other foreign political elites in Brussels ("Real Democracy? I don't think so"!!)- then doesn't it follow that MP's should receive a salary more commensurate to their decreased responsibilities.
Aren't there just two issues with the coast of MP's ?
1) Expenses are hidden. The smoke and mirrors game played by MP's to hide what they really earn is what causes the angst in the public. Why can't they have a salary and be done All the issues spouted in the commons like "I don't feel i should have to carry my bed on the train each week" is deliberate obscuration.
2) There are just too many MP's. The sheer number versus the the population just isn't viable. If we had the same ratio as say, USA, we'd halve the number of representatives. Let's be honest - your average backbench MP does very little. His team may answer constituents letters ... he, himself, is a waste of a perfectly good chair.
The question isn't "Can we afford MP's ?" - we obviously can and do - but, do we wish to ?
I think we can all put together a list of MP's who we could replace quite ably with low fat, natural yoghurts.
Andreas Patterson -
I can't believe you actually read Newmania's comments. To answer your points...
"I wouldn't feel too guilty for the harshness Sadie, the man did bring up one of those smug Tory points (Tasmin Dunwoody is bigger toff than Timpson) despite it not being particularly relevant."
Ummm...actually Sadie bought it up with the lazy jibes against Osborne and Cameron. Newmania merely pointed out that there's blue-blood in the labour ranks as well - the 2nd Viscount Stangate springs to mind
"He avoids the sleaze arguments because to be honest we have the Tories bang to rights on that score."
Riiight. Let's see if these names mean anything to you...Peter Hain, Lord Levy, Wendy Alexander, the Keens, etc. They're all as bad as each other, but at least the Conservatives are trying to do something about it - eg. recent expenses vote. Number of Labour MPs who voted for the current system and against transparency - 146. Number of Conservatives who voted with them - 21
"And talks about Tory plans for donation caps with that whole deliberate ignorance towards the obvious facts that they're designed to royally screw the Labour party."
The donation cap suggestion applies equally to both parties and would limit massive donations that cannot help but influence party policy - whether they are from Ashcroft or Mittal
"Only 18% of the country's workforce is unionised because Thatcher indulged in an initial round of royal screwing 20 years prior"
And thank God she did. At least 82%of the country can be relied upon to do their jobs without causing misery to the rest of us by striking over the smallest matter
"His idea that union money is not clean is pure bull, all political funding is special interests it just happens that this special interest is highly democratic and represents a far larger share of the working population then any other special interest"
If union money is clean, then they will surely have no problem with their individual members donating?
"To add to all that, it appears that the unpleasant right wing bully boy actually agrees with your main point."
Brilliant. Nothing like calling someone names to make a point.
A brilliant post Sadie.
To the final commentator, I'm sick of this rubbish about there being too many MPs. Balls. I don't give two hoots about comparisons with other countries, it may well be that others have less - that doesn't make them correct. The more pertinant issue would be what role do we want MPs to perform? As it stands, in my experience working for MPs and the party, our elected representatives don't have the hours in the day to get everything they need to get done done (and that with them working an on average day that runs from 9 till 10, half unpaid). This wouldn't be the case, possibly, if MPs primary job was as legislators - but it no longer is. Or, it still is, but on top of that they have their constituency case load also. The old line of those who do not read should not have power, but those who have power have no time to read has never been truer.
At the moment this situation favours the Tories - they sit on boards etc. and edit the odd magazine, while simply filling their offices with researchers who do everything for them, never touching a letter etc in their life.
Pablito - The overall point is that many of the privileges afforded to MP's mean that ordinary people of all stripes can do the job and politics is not exclusive to the well off, That is as a good thing. This endless ranting on about minor privileges by the right wing media threatens that. Relative percentage of Toffs in whatever party is a minor distraction.
We do have the Tories bang to rights on sleaze Sadie made this point very well in the past, but Levy was not actually found guilty of anything, Alexander unwittingly recieved a sub £1,000 donation that was technically illegal. Hain didn't declare donations in time. Tory sleaze has involved far bigger sums and misuse of taxpayer's money.
As far as union money goes, individual donations dilute the power of a union this is a bad thing, but since you have a bizarre "Us workers don't want representation. Power to the opressor! Up the plutocrats!" attitude I don't think i'll convince you differently.
Finally, newmania is a right wing bully boy, he often weaves in insults among the points he makes on left wing blogs. I don't particularly like those tactics.
Andreas
Firstly, it was Sadie who stooped
to the Toffs comments. For such a minor distraction, these left-wing bloggers just can't stop talking about it all the bloody time. Sooner or later they'll realise (if Crewe didn't demonstrate well enough) that nobody else gives a monkeys
Nobody is arguing that politics shouldn't be accesible to all.
However there is rather a large difference between that and voting for a system that allows you a large amount of taxpayer's money in expenses without any scrutiny
What possible argument can there be against transparency in claming expenses?
You certainly do not have the Conservatives "bang to rights" on sleaze. Levy's guilt was never tested as the case was dropped by the CPS. Alexander was found guily and did know about the donation as her letter to Paul Green shows. Hain didn't just declare donations in time but is now in trouble over the money that came through the pseudo-think tank Progressive Policies Forum. Let's not even mention Mandelson, Ecclestone, Mittal, David Marshall or the Smith Institute
Honestly, they are all as bad as each other and the only way forward is straight transparency. Let's see who does what, sack those who take the piss and cheer those who are honest and actually take care of the money that we entrust to them.
The unions are now pretty much the only thing keeping the Labour party afloat and I find such reliance worrying indeed.
Your other comments reveal that you seem to think everyone slaves down a mine 20 hours a day. Using words such as "oppressor" or "plutocrat" just demonstrate that I'm not the one with the bizarre views!
As for your last paragraph - if you dislike such tactics, why stoop to hurling insults yourself?
I stoop to nuffink.
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